Dutch bishop: Call God ?Allah? to ease relations

[Gotch]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sup-rbeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK...now care to go back over the past 1500 years and look at the wrongs propagated by Christians ? Some folks have a long memory. Just because it didn't happen yesterday doesn't mean it didn't happen. </div></div>

Noone remembers events that took place 1,500 years ago. They can be influenced by the history or the purported history of these events. Good example here would be the crusades.

Muslims and some Christians use the purported history of this event to cast a negative light upon medieval Christians when in fact nearly every historian familiar with the details of the crusades will tell you that the Muslims were not only the aggressors but that the Christians had absolutely no choice but to react or else be over-run and killed or converted at the tip of a sword.

So are we going to count all the deaths of the crusades against the Muslims?

Anyway, best estimate on the inquisition are, Medieval Inquisition about 2,250 deaths, and Spanish Inquisition about 2,000 deaths.

Not trying to belittle these numbers but it only took a few hours for a group of hate filled Muslims to nearly triple the total that took the Inquisitors several centuries to accumulate.

Again though, take the RCC out of it and see how many deaths Christian radicals or any Christians can be blamed for. Remember the RCC was a political entity and actually accounted for less deaths during their rein as a powerful political entity than nearly any other major political entity of the time.

I'm in no danger of having a 13th century Inquisitor murder me, I am however in danger of being killed by a Muslim terrorist, maybe not a high risk, but a risk none the same.

Again I challenge you to take the political entity of the RCC out of the equation and then see what the picture looks like. It's already completely one-side. Without the RCC it is a total landslide of evil for the other side.

[sup-rbeast]

You can twist numbers and make all the excuses you like...but there is no difference.

[Gotch]

So giving the actual numbers and stating facts is "twisting numbers" and "making excuses"?

No difference? When was the last time a group of Christians got together and plotted to commit a mass murder numbering into the thousands? When was the last time a Christian strapped a bomb to his or her chest and blew up 40 or 50 men women and children along with themselves? When was the last time a Christian minister praised someone for blowing themselves and 40-50 other people up?

No difference? You need to look past your own predujices and see the simple and obvious facts.

[sup-rbeast]

The Klan are Christian, the People's Temple was Christian, and the difference between the bombs Muslims use and the bombs Christians use is that most Muslims don't have a war plane to drop their bombs from. And before you go off on an "unpatriotic" rant, I served my time with Uncle Sam, but I can still see the wrong in dropping bombs all over the world with no real control over how many men, women and children they kill. That is where Muslim extremists draw from...the unadulterated killing of their masses when they don't keep in line with Christian and Zionist governments. Do I condone what they do...No...do I condone the things done to them...No. When you have nothing, that is when many folks find strength in their religion. And just as Christians justify their actions through scripture, they do as well. So, if you want to add up numbers, maybe you should go back to the time that Europeans and other Westerners first decided to occupy Muslim lands, and add up every Muslim casualty or person murdered in the name of God by Christians...then you may have a "true" number. Or better yet, maybe you can justify setting up the state of Isreal after WWII...without finding scripture that justifies it. Maybe you can justify removing Muslim Arabs from their lands to accomodate that state as well...because God knows no one in Eurpoe or the US were going to carve them out a state in their own homelands. So, before you go to saying Gods name is this because I think so, maybe you should look at the big picture and not just little selections from the unabridged text of history.

[Gotch]

"maybe you should go back to the time that Europeans and other Westerners first decided to occupy Muslim lands, and add up every Muslim casualty or person murdered in the name of God by Christians.."

That would be very few. Governments, not religions occupied Muslim lands. That can be demonstrated also by the fact that no real effort was made to force the people to change their beliefs. On the other hand, when the Ottoman Empire conquered a land the inhabitants were forced to convert or be killed, on occasion they were allowed to keep their faith, if they paid very high fees (in form of taxes) to do so.

"The Klan are Christian"

I have a life long acquaintance who rose fairly high in the Klan, he is now in Federal prison. He was not religious in any way. In fact the only thing religion based I ever heard he mention sounded occult related.

Most of the Klan's victims have also been Christians.

"the People's Temple was Christian"

They were a group influenced and led by one individual who used scripture to his own means. I don't believe he believe what he preached. He was a classic cult figure. Hard to blame true Christians for his actions.

Not defending him, but noone would have been killed have the authorities not made a show of force and appeared to be fulfilling his crazy prophecies. the local Sheriff had walked up to the door and arrested him on a couple of occasions without incident. They did not go looking for people to kill.

"And before you go off on an "unpatriotic" rant..."

I'm not ranting, I'm replying to a rant.

"the unadulterated killing of their masses.."

Okay.....are you talking about all the Muslims Saddam killed or all the ones put to death by the Taliban?

"when they don't keep in line with Christian and Zionist governments."

Cue Twilight Zone theme.....

"maybe you should go back to the time that Europeans and other Westerners first decided to occupy Muslim lands,"

Maybe you should go back to when Muslims tried to occupy Europe and force the occupants to convert. The western occupations were political driven the Muslim occupation was religion driven as prescribed in the Koran and as demonstrated by Mohammad himself when he led armies that murdered thousands and took untold numbers of women and children prisoners, often times forcing them in slavery included sex slaves.

"Or better yet, maybe you can justify setting up the state of Isreal after WWII.."

Boy, that's an easy one. It was their land...geeze. The Turks (see Muslims) had run them from it.

I reply to more later, out of time for now....

[sup-rbeast]

hahaha...Nonsense and your particular view has no bearing on fact...I'll leave you to it.

[Gotch]

Rather than edit I'll just say that I was in a hurry and answered the "People's Temple" claim with an answer about the Branch Davidian's. But Jim Jones and the People's Temple is an even weaker example of a Christian group as Jones clearly suffered from a serious psychosis and the results were the results of the actions of a madman and had nothing to do with religion of any form other than whatever was in his twisted mind.

"hahaha...Nonsense and your particular view has no bearing on fact...I'll leave you to it."

I can supply historical sources for any history based claim I made, can you?

There was a reason that much of the Arab world sided with Hitler....

[Gotch]

"Or better yet, maybe you can justify setting up the state of Isreal after WWII..."

So, you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist?!?!

That's a pretty radical view. Yasser Arafat even admitted that they had a right to exist.

"....when they don't keep in line with Christian and Zionist governments."

That's the lingo of the wackos who believe that a vast ancient Jewish conspiracy is at the root of nearly all evil throughout history. This was also the belief that led to and allowed the holocaust to occur.

.

[sup-rbeast]

I'm not going to dignify your opinions with anymore responses...Regardless of all of the "facts" you present, nothing you have said is from any point of view except your own skewed opinions..nothing objevtive...which shows a lack of understanding which is predominate in nearly all Americans, especially those in the Bible belt and rural south... this is relative tho: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/17/albright.qa/index.html

[Gotch]

"I'm not going to dignify your opinions with anymore responses..."

LOL...just lol

Here is some reading too:

http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/Gener...man_empire.htm

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/mohammad1.html

http://decision08.net/2006/07/31/the...ight-to-exist/